Pin Up Girls

Rachie Pin-up...

PS. I was going to add some stuff on my opinion but you just about summed it up. Old-school 'binary' feminism sometimes reminds me of the end of Animal Farm when the 'free' animals opress as much as the humans did! Early feminism had a lot of shame and disgust and anger tied up in it (almost like someone who suddenly breaks out of an abusive relationship) and some of that expressed itself by denying or railing against the physical signs and the fact that- biologically- people tend to find the opposite sex attractive and that's how babies are made! It is the power games that should be a source of outrage, not sexiness itself. After all, if we are to cover or legs, chest, hair, wear no make up... well, isn't that just opression too? Reminds me of an oppressive regime.

Plus, MY pet hate is women who self-appoint themselves as moral guardians for the rest of us. What, it's not OK for men to do it but it is for a section of women to judge the rest of us? pure hypocracy, bourne of the pain I mentioned above.

Modern feminism ('post feminism', too) tends towards a more healed standpoint, thankfully. We must learn to love ourselves and value our fellow woman as an intelligent and equal human being. It is a shame that for some, the judgementalism from men has transferred to the 'holy few' women...and anyone who disagrees is a thicko and a bimbo (which is a great 'get out of jail free' card for arguments).

Thanks, Squizita, for understanding.

Just to let everyone know--and I can understand where this confusion came from--when I say "butch," I am referring to the mindset that Squizita and I have both discussed above.

Also, kudos to correlating this to Animal Farm! I was thinking along the same lines but didn't want to go too crazy with my one post, lol. ;)

I agree Squizita

After reading all five pages of this thread, I'm a little worried that some of you might smack me up a bit for what I'm about to write, but I'm going to go for it anyway

Personally, I think the appeal of pin-up girls nowadays lies in the aesthetics of the whole look and the theatricality (is that even a word?) of it. It's something of a counter-current to the culture of instant gratification that society at large has got going on. Yes, they're posing in their undies - no, they haven't got their boobs out. Rather than the kind of full-on sexuality that sells top-shelf rags like zoo, it's more flirtatious and teasing. Times have changed and it does indeed look tame now - and I'm definitely not saying that's a good thing - but I think that's why people are so drawn to the style; it's a whole lot less scary/predatory/degrading than some random chick in nothing but a thong pouting at the camera (which is not a good look, in my opinion).

I'm a big fan of costume and I adore dressing up and if I was to channel the style, that's how I'd see it - as a way of creating a different persona for myself. I hadly think that stars like Bettie Page and Dita von Teese spend every second of every day dolled up in full pin-up style... There's power to be had in creating another you (speaking from experience here). And yes, it's not the only way to feel good about yourself, but it *is* a way and, just as you wouldn't ignore the power of self-confidence in making you feel good, I don't feel you can really ignore the power of transforming yourself temporarily. As long as you're doing it because you've consciously chosen to do it and not because you've been press-ganged into it, and as long as you recognise that you don't have to do it all the time (this bit being especially important), I don't see the harm in it myself. You may feel differently - I completely respect that.

In the same mindframe, I don't agree that pin-up style has no place in crafting. The beauty of sites like this is that there are so many different styles going on and you're free to post things related to whichever styles you're partial to, without the judgement that you'd (potentially) get in real life. In the same way, I guess snippets is supposed to reflect that - you can't just leave out articles on any particular style because some people don't agree with it. Yes, if every issue was about pin-up girls and related styles then we might have a problem, but it's only one in a whole host of other ones. I completely agree with you that idolising pin-up girls as 'heroines' isn't a good idea - the term should definitely be reserved for women who've done something constructive - but I feel that the problem is more to do with the media essentially being a collective one-track mind than people aspiring to the style. The pin-up aesthetic has a place alongside a whole bunch of other definitions of 'sexy' and if this actually translated into real life then everything would be fine and dandy - but the truth is that it doesn't. What we should be doing is bringing out of these shadows all these other ways of being sexy, instead of shooting down one particularly tenacious style because it's demoralising for women. Balance!

Okay. /rant, I think. Apologies if I've offended anyone - I didn't intend to, but the internet makes it notoriously difficult to read people...

P.S. With regards to pin-up style, as part of the whole 'culture of sex' at large, having a negative influence on women, I'd say you need to give people more credit for their intelligence. Yes, there will always be people who are completely trapped by media definitions of 'sexy' and aspire only to that - but it is possible to avoid it (and that's where sites like this/subgenres of music and fashion/other non-mainstream things come in). I have plenty of exposure to the media, but I don't go round with my face caked in makeup and my boobs hanging out. Maybe I'm just an exception though (I have a body that defies high-street norms beyond any and all attempts to conform) - who knows?

Louise Louisa- thank you for such an informed and personal POV. I hope no one tries to shoot you down, if they did they would just be demonstrating that 'get out of jail free' card i talked about above and would not be engaging in intelligent debate. I totally agree with you- but aside from that the way you said it was balanced and astute and I don't think anyone could shoot you down even if they disagreed.

For the record, I've studied (and taught) feminism and its direct relationship with performative behaviour and art... so when I argue against an attitude or tone it is both from experience and being 'read up' on all the right texts and theories. I've come to my conclusions, others theirs: however the one bugbear that really gets me is the 'pro pin ups must be thick and trying to please men, even if they think they're not'. It refutes our (ie women's) ability to take ownership of a dominant ideology (would those same people condemn African American art/poetry for not writing in standard English? Or homosexual drag artists for seeking approval by aping 'molly culture' of the 1800s? NO! Because it's wrong and patronising... but as with all people coming out of a disfunctional relationship, a level of self-doubt and self-patronisation/censorship is present within feminist circles even to this day).

My other issue is the attitude (ironically one men have been trapped into by sexism) that to want to please/help another is inherently 'weak' and lowers status. To grovel is low status: to present yourself in a way that pleases others whilst being in control is not. If the pleasing is the basis for ones self-esteem then yes, it does lower status: if it comes from a person with good, solid self esteem (as 'high' is not always healthy...think too-high footballers being unable to play as a team!) who wants to share something and please others in the process, it has no inherent staus-lowering quality. Indeed, if that person were to self-censor because one or two men out there might be ogling/it might annoy other women... that would be the sign of weak self esteem: control of (reasonable/legal) actions through a willingness to allow other people's dominant ideologies rule over one's own ideologies. Essentially: allowing them to control your actions (and thus judge and reject your ideological ideals) because you fear what they might think of you. Of course, the exact same freedom is that which enables a woman to wear Hajib in a provincial town where others might look at her funny, allows another woman to dress in a more masculine way, or another to reject artifical beauty products like make up... all the behaviours demonstrate the woman's ideology and her refusal (from men or women) to compromise in light of judgement from the ideologies of others - even if she is in the minority. Provided they don't fall into the trap of judging others, it's a healthier place because a woman can choose to cover up or not and neither action should make her feel uncomfortable.

It is a shame that some of us have confused empowerment with borrowing self-limiting ideologies from the 'old fashioned' male mindset which most men would reject nowadays (even though the media pressurises them just as much- most TV shows have female doctors, but male nurses are harder to find, for example) to some extent.

I HATE nude picture/statues of women.

I cant even stand the ancient statues.

The only thing good about pin-up girls in their striped pants. The rest can go XD

But really? Men go to art galleries and MORE than 85% of all nude statues/paintings are women, and actually most of the "nude" men jsut have their butts showing.

All in all, when I walk around I really dont want to see female anatomy.

Just out of interest, what art galleries are these? Because the male nudes I've seen in London galleries (from modern to to traditional) are a LOT more explicit than the women. Remember that historically women 'aren't meant to like sex' but men are...

I don't know where you get the 85% stat from either.

well honestly it just depends on where your from. i mean i was born in america and americans are very out with thier sexuality. we seem to take a certain pride in our natural selves and sex just isnt a big deal, we idolize pinups for thier beauty, and the way they express thier animalistic sides. while maybe in another country sex is looked upon as a bad thing, or sacred.

I happen to love pin-up, and actually am a local burlesque performer and pinup model from the Detroit area.

I prefer the old style retro pinup look to the newer version which seems to be nudie + red lipstick. But more to the point, I love modeling pin-up because I like the way I look in stylish sexy clothes, and love the feedback I get from doing burlesque.

I don't think there's anything wrong with strutting your stuff if you want!

And I *don't* have the typical waif model perfect body, but I don't care what most other people think, and I am proud of how I look!

I think of it this way....

I don't judge a woman who wants to work as an exec in a business; I don't judge a woman who wants to raise a family.

I don't judge a woman who doesn't wear makeup and doesn't own a push-up bra; I don't judge a woman who wears a push-up bra and stilettos daily.

I think that is the end-goal of feminism. Its that each woman can be exactly who she choses, and she doesn't have to be stripped down to comply with the "feminist" ideals if she doesn't want to, but she also doesn't have to be a sex kitten. As long as you are doing what makes YOU happy and what makes YOU feel sexy.

Lula La Rose: Sometime when I come back to MI, we should collaborate!!! :-D

Amen to that Heidi P ... a person is a person and feminism is about that (so in a way it applies to men too- person-ism! ;) - eg how many men feel they'd get judged if they chose to be a home-maker?).

It's sad when something that should free people becomes judgemental and it's something we all need to be aware of cause sadly it is part of human nature at times.

Wow! This thread has been going for years!

I think there are two seperate threads to the modern burlesque/ pin up; the first is modern women (and men) recreating the historical pin up or burlesque performance. These can be fun, often very beautiful, and have a charming emphasis on the character of the model/ dancer which I think is missing from the mainstream glamour pin ups. However, it is correct to say that the styles (mainly the 1950's style people like Vargas did) that these women are emulating are forerunners of the page 3/ playboy mag/ strip club styles of entertainment.

What I find really exciting is the modern neo-burlesque scene that takes some elements of these old styles and subvert them by having performances from many different types of women (and increasingly men as well!). By using older, accepted ideas and images of femininity to satirise society's boundaries and gender roles, performers and models are in a unique position to point out hypocrasy and to encourage a positive bady image in people who admire their work... And, in my experience, at least half of the audience tends to be women. Of course, like any other genre, there will be people who focus on different aspects - I'm not claiming that every routine/photo is cutting edge political commentary! But, seriously, I've done and seen routines that explore themes like abortion, gender-bending, the rise of the right wing, capitalism, Kafka, toxic waste... The list could go on forever!

Whether or not these new fads encourage exploitation really has to be looked at on a case by case basis. Of course there will be the odd pub owner who will decide that paying a bunch of young girls to prance around in their knickers will be good for business/ the odd sleazy photographer who thinks the same. But overwhelmingly, the burlesque/pin up scene seems to be positive, supportive, and self regulating. Plus, as an actual job, it is a lot less exploitative than working minimum wage in a dive of a bar and getting hit on by customers! Most pin up models/ burlesque performers construct their own narratives, make their own costumes and props, sort their own lighting, mix their own music, and do their own choreography. It is a incredibly creative scene full of people who are entertaining, and often sexy, as a result of their performance skills, hard work, stage persona, and intelligence.

Of course it is a controversial topic - any scene that focuses so heavily on female sexuality is going to be. But I think the majority of performers and models use their own body (and the revealing or hiding of their form) as a medium through which to explore other issues. The idea that the sole aim of these people is to excite male viewers is laughable.

<HTML ERROR> - I always found the opposite traditional statue galleries; that the men are shown full frontal and with pubic hair whereas the women tend to be covering their genitals/ have a conveniently placed piece of drapery down there! Just curious: Do you mind art that is sexual without being graphic - like O'Keefe or Judy Chicago where the anatomy is suggested but not shown?