Pin Up Girls

I am now giving away free tickets to the world of Sug. Free rides for all and the all you can eat carnival cakes! hmmm yum.

Hmm, now I'm wishing this board had a polls option...

There was burlesque dancers on the Alan Titchmarsh Show...3 in the afternoon! (yeh he's got his own show, it's actually fabulous! someone said wankers on it today hahaha anyywaaay) These dancers said its about satire, humour and strip tease...80% of their audience is women, it's about empowering women, I think men probably look at these dancers in a different way to other dancers. Hell, women look at them differently.

I was always a bit more accepting of these dancers anyway I think issues concerning sexism by pass the sex industry and by that I mean the really poor and tacky side of it, the illegal side of it because it's hidden and underground. There's a huge difference between burlesque and strippers/hookers. It will happen because people love money.

It's in public and work places sexism needs to be dealt with.

I totally agree there's a massive difference between burlesque dancing and stripping/lapdancing and all that, and yeah i see it's about empowering woman and things- i just believe there's got to be a different way to empower women. Surely taking off your clothes and appearing as nothing but sexy (if a little humurous too) isn't the be all and end all to empowerment?

And yes- sexism in public and work places definitely needs to be dealt with, but I think it's a lot harder to deal with that when things like burlesque and pin up girls are accepted. It all seems a bit hypocritical to me, to allow one thing but be horrified by another.

Also sugs- i'm sure it's lovely to be happy and bubbly all the time but sometimes you need a good debate!

yeh it does seem hypocritical actually uurgh I hate contradicting myself! Its like very seperate things when I think of a woman working as a stripper and a woman raising kids and working, that's what i mean by underground and hidden, it's like... fame, it's not the real world.

I agree with you queenfairypants on the whole burlesque vs. stripping thing, but that partly has to do with a lot of the more feminist burlesque I have seen such as Gorilla Girls. There are other ways to get your point across for sure, but I think we need to almost desexual the body a bit in North American Society. In Europe the mentality about the body is different, they're boobs...so what? Sexism in society is perpetuated by what we are the most uncomfortable with, and in North America we are really uncomfortable with our bodies. Also, sexism can go both ways, I have seen male burlesque as well, there are male strip clubs for women..but as with a lot of issues the focus tends to be fairly one sided. We focus on women because traditionally we are the sex on the receiving end of the sexist comments, but it does happen on both ends of the spectrum... Look at male nurses for example, a friend of mine constantly gets sexist comments because he is a male in a female dominated career. My boyfriend has experienced the same issues as a male massage therapist, he was one of two males in a twelve person graduating class, and he constantly has sexist comments directed towards him because of it.

I'm all for equality, don't get me wrong, but we do need to see that it has to happen both ways. How often do you see a male working in a daycare?? Rarely. Why? Because, why would a male work in a daycare? He's supposed to do manly jobs and be the breadwinner in a family, only a pervert would work in a daycare. That mentality pervades our society and it completely discourages people from doing what they want to do. I often find women are more accepted in male dominated fields, than males are in female dominated fields.

Yeah, I definitely see where you're coming from, Jessica. It's only acceptable if they're gay, right? People can be so narrow minded!

I've got to say though- It's not really "boobs...so what?" over here. At least, it's not if you're unfortunate enough to have seen Nuts Magazine. I think though, in more tasteful, cultured places it is, thankfully 'boobs...so what?'. They're not sexual organs, it's as legal for a woman to be topless in public as it for a man- just not seen as often, obviously! Although apparently when some women do it, there are a lot of car crashes as a result! tut tut.

In Europe maybe they think 'boobs..so what'...read that in a French accent because Britain is very different to the rest of Europe. European men are awful when they see British women, they think we're easy because they see us rolling out of clubs at 4 am off our erm...tits!

When I think women strippers I think quite seedy places and when I think male strippers I think tacky and silly...thank you society. I always feel really funny and confused when I talk about these issues cuz I don't feel like we could change it completely

Everyone looks at it from both ways once they have become aware of sexism but when someone is ranting it won't come through as much.

what IS a pin up girl anyway? people on this site seem to like them haha

I didn't read this entire thread.

Here is my response:

I, personally, am sick and tired of being told that I, a woman, am exploiting myself if I choose to take advantage of my ultra-femininity. Honestly, feminism was SUPPOSED to be about expanding options available to a woman, not limiting them in a completely different way. It's outlandish and insulting that I cannot flaunt my feminine body without being looked down upon by holier-than-thou butch feminists. Men can flaunt their masculine bodies, no questions asked. It is sexist for others to attempt to disallow my show of femininity.

I have a REAL problem with butch women telling women like me what we should and shouldn't do.

This is for you; it's my interpretation of that image that makes you sooooo uncomfortable:



I am an INTELLIGENT and EMPOWERED young woman, and I refuse to be belittled by others, simply because some people can't handle the way I conduct my life. I am a beauty pageant queen and a model, and MY LIFE IS GREAT. Please do NOT belittle those of us who choose to embrace our femininity the way we see fit, simply because you do not agree. It is only exploitism if the woman does not want the photos taken, or to wear the clothes. I don't see any pinup who is uncomfortable with her body or situation. It looks like the only one who is uncomfortable with pinups is you.

Peace.

Here! Here!

I get what you're saying. Why should "beautiful" mean "sexy"? Why can't women be celebrated as strong, beautiful women who have stretch-marks because they gave birth, and have frizzy hair because they'd rather be gardening or playing with their children than trying out the newest make up and hair-extensions. Why do people (the entertainment industry in particular) suggest that the perfect woman be sleek and sexy with a come-hither look and her clothes half off... Why do our teens have to grow up hating their "real" bodies because they're being shown that air-brushed, fake tanned, silicone injected, bleached, dyed, and waxed women are what guys want? Why does everything have to be about sex? You can't even watch a movie now-days without seeing some half naked chick portrayed as a "tough bitch".

I think the most beautiful women are those who are real. (size two or twenty-two) Women who laugh and love and raise families and give from their hearts. Women who wear last year's...hell, last 3 year's old styles because they don't give into the media's idea of perfection. I like to see women celebrating their beauty by dressing up and being feminine...but not flaunting themselves as if sex were the only things they had to offer the world.

Not to argue with your view . I'm 15 its not my place but i love the idea of burlsque. It isnt so much slutty as made out. It all about the thrill of the tease. these woman are admired for having such a powerfull grip over mens emotions. Painted on planes a symbol of stregnth and beauty. since 1939 men thought lets remember those lovely lassies on a symbol of freedom and power hence the wing designs .

In one of my classes we began talking about the idea of women putting themselves up as sex symbols as a way to empower themselves. There were things that made the conversation very complicated like: Women using their sexiness as a way to control men are seen as strong powerful confident beauties. However - the fact that they feel the only way to have a 'power' over men is to objectify themselves shows that they are playing in a man's world making them weak in society.

This applies to pin-ups:

1. Pin-up girls are confident, sexy, free, they do what they want and wear what they want because they CAN they show other women that it's ok to be a woman and that there is a power to being a woman.
2. Pin-up girls are confident, sexy, free, they do what they want and wear what they want because they CAN but the ways that they chose to be sexy was set my men. Men like little clothing and big breast - this becomes sexy. Therefore the sexy pin-up girl are just empowering the ideals of men.

No matter what this conversation will always boil down to points 1 and 2... Or maybe a mixture of both.

I have mixed feelings about this topic. I see the topic as going both ways. I personally love pin-ups. They're sexy and they celebrate the female body. I love looking at their curves and their clothes and their hair and I love seeing how pretty they are. But as soon as I see all these superficial things about them and think they are pretty I begin to ask myself "why are these images so stunning?" and the answer always comes up as "because I have been conditioned, from a young age, to consider these things as beautiful or desirable" and this bothers me. I'm a feminist. I have always been a feminist. But I have also always been torn by some things and this is one of them.

I don't know... I have just rambled on but this is what I think... It's a never ending circle and it makes things crowded in here.

This is just a comment about the post by *Rachie Pin-Up*... I HATE the word "butch". I think it's a word that puts women down and to hear a woman use the word against other women is disturbing to me. I think that girls calling other girls butch or anything along those lines is far more dangerous than a pin up girl or a porn star or a photoshopped starlet. You value yourself and I love that. And from your post you sound like you are lashing out from a place of hurt - but putting down other women and calling them 'butch' because they have short hair, frumpy clothes or no curves is like you saying "all women HAVE to be ‘pretty’. All women HAVE to have long hair. All women HAVE to embrace their femininity. If they don’t then they are butch and they are not beautiful.” Using this word is detrimental to society because it shows ignorance or closed mindedness. I’m not saying you are closed minded but I do think that your post was hypocritical. You’re saying that you don’t want to get put down because you chose to be feminine but while saying this you’re putting down all the people that don’t chose to be feminine.

It's interesting why there is a link between crafting and pin-ups.

One link may be the recent 'empowerment' of something that WAS sexist (baking and sewing? Many old school feminists would be appalled that modern women do such thinks in their homes, for fun. Many sexist men would rejoice at that as a woman doing that is your 'role'... pretty similar to attitudes to pin-ups).

For the record (and others have said this)- some people DO have figures like that. Not many (it's the unusuallness that is part of the attraction for many) but some- about 8% I've heard. Ironically, unless you are in some type of modelling, it's not the done thing to represent yourself and skinny and busty - it seems that to some people (no one here) empowering women has a heavy dose of judging by appearances. To deny people exist isn't really a valid part of the argument.